Hey everyone! Welcome to this new blog. I love the phrase struggling into the future because it describes my spiritual journey on a day to day basis. For me, to struggle is a positive thing. If I am struggling then I am moving, moving forward...the day I stop struggling is the day I stop growing and moving. This blog is real simple...every week I will ask a new question. Please respond...however you feel. Ask more questions...share your opinion...and know that the questions are not being asked from a judgemental point of view...but they are just questions that we all ask...they are us struggling forward. You can leave your name or you can comment Anonymously. Please share this blog with whoever you want...
If you have a question that you think would strike up a good conversation please feel free to email me at justin@impactuncc.com.
Here's the first question...this is something I have wrestled with for a long time...I guess you could say I have been struggling!
Is it possible for church leaders and pastors to both passionately pursue intimacy with God and desire to see the church grow numerically and do the things that will cause this to happen?
What examples have you seen of men and women who have done both?
15 comments:
What exactly do you mean by "do the things that will cause this to happen?"
In Acts 2:42-47, Luke says:
42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
I don't believe it is wrong to have the desire to see the church grow numerically... but that desire can't drive us. We can't look at the reward for the reason that we do certain things. In Acts, the first fellowship of believers did not meet so that they could gain a reward, or that they could boast about their numbers and look for ways to grow - they merely praised God and enjoyed his grace - and in return the LORD added to their numbers. They did not - the Lord did. They didn't rejoice over their advertising strategies - they rejoiced over God. Period.
I feel that if we truly come to God in this way, devoting ourselves to the apostles teachings and to the fellowship, with the breaking of bread and prayer, with not only glad but SINCERE hearts, then the Lord will take care of the rest. We need not worry about it and we surely should not look towards the reward. If the Lord wants numbers, he will bring them. If he doesn't, it's not up to us to try ourselves.
Thats just my opinion.
Possible - but not too likely, at least in most cases. As we've talked before, one of the dozens of reasons I left the church was the fact that it was selling out - spending a couple of million to make the church buildings larger to attract more people to make it bigger to attract more people, and so on.
Seems to me the church should be more concerned about spreading the word, helping those who are less fortunate, and being a strong pillar of the community - instead of simply trying to increase its membership numbers.
-David Smith
Just a few thoughts, in no particular order.
• There seems to be a thin, gray line between rejoicing in the church growth that God can bring, and the pursuit of statistical benchmarks for the sake of patting oneself on the back.
• I don't think there's anything [necessarily] wrong with a large church with lots of money. It's all relative, anyway. I also don't think a small group of believers is somehow better or more spiritual than a large one.
• I think Kevin is right on the money - rejoicing over God tends to be what brings us the most life-changing blessings.
-cp
I agree with what they said. We cannot try to take things into our own hands, we aren't supposed to worry about tommorow. And Gods will will happen no matter how hard we try to controll things. We need to pray and tell God for His will to be done in the situation, not for our will to be done.
"Is it possible for church leaders and pastors to both passionately pursue intimacy with God and desire to see the church grow numerically and do the things that will cause this to happen?"
I believe that this is possible and in my opinion a called duty. Let me explain what I mean by that. It is first and foremost important that we strive after a passionate and intimate relationship with God. From that, the desire of our hearts should be to act as God has commanded us. So, he has called us to love his people, to disciple them and care for them. In loving his people, we should be reaching out to them, which in turn should translate to a growth in the church. We are called as Christians to be disciples and reach those who do not know Christ to come to a relationship with him and fellowship with other believers.
The focus, however, is the key to this whole thing: God. That focus should lead to this chain of events and ultimately the actions of seeing the church grow numerically. Focusing on God, we can see the desire of his will for ourselves and His people. That focus is what separates His will from our selfish focus of growth merely for personal desires and numerical achievement. Not to say that we have or will always get it right, but in an ideal situation, that should be the outcome, and in turn, our goal to strive for.
i think it might come down to the intent behind the desire for numbers. meaning, if you simply want numbers for ego or pride or fame sake theres something wrong, but if you want the numbers because you know that increasing numbers means more people coming to Christ and finding the Truth then i think youre in the right place. like what kevin brought up, the example we are given of a growing church is a church filled with love for one another and praise to the Father. It seems to me if youre faithful and a good steward with few, God will bless you with many.
Great stuff everyone!
I'm working through a workbook called Experiencing God right now and a verse jumped out at me tonight that I think might be relevant to this topic.
"Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God." Psalm 20:7
How does this relate to this question?
someone just gave me this advice:
don't spiritualize what you should organize, and don't organize what you should spiritualize.
so i guess #'s are something we can keep track of and "organize", but someone's intimacy with God is spiritual...???
i don't know... blah blah
just throwing something into the discussion
Here's what Paul said about the matter:
It's true that some here preach Christ because with me out of the way, they think they'll step right into the spotlight. But the others do it with the best heart in the world. One group is motivated by pure love, knowing that I am here defending the Message, wanting to help. The others, now that I'm out of the picture, are merely greedy, hoping to get something out of it for themselves. Their motives are bad. They see me as their competition, and so the worse it goes for me, the better—they think—for them.
So how am I to respond? I've decided that I really don't care about their motives, whether mixed, bad, or indifferent. Every time one of them opens his mouth, Christ is proclaimed, so I just cheer them on!
Philippians 1:15-21 (the message)
Kevin, I believe the people of the 1st Century church were looking at the reward for the reason they were doing things...the problem exist today that we might possibly not understand what the "reward" is.
We're confused, we believe that numerical growth and successful ministries and attention from other christians is the reward. So in that sense I believe you are correct, the first fellowship was not interested in that reward. But I believe they were deeply focused on "the reward." Always and that's what set them apart.
2 Chron. 15:7 says, "But you, be strong and do not lose courage, for there is a reward for your work."
Proverbs 11:18 says, "The wicked earns deceptive wages, But he who sows righteousness gets a true reward."
What is that reward?
Isaiah 49:4 says, "But I said, "I have toiled in vain, I have spent My strength for nothing and vanity; Yet surely the justice due to Me is with the LORD, And My reward with My God."
Could it be that our reward....is God?
And to truly focus on the reward of ministry is to focus on God....hence to desire intimacy with God.
Revelation 2 says this to the church in Ephesus (paraphrase) "Hey I think you've done a great job, ministering, serving, working, doing, helping, caring.....but THIS I have against you: (no paraphrase) "you have fosaken your first love."
Jesus is our first love, He is the Groom, we are His Beloved....our Lover is our Reward.
If our focus is on the "true Reward" then we are exactly where we should be....exactly where the first fellowship was...praising God and enjoying His grace....their Reward.
Just some thoughts.
Peace. Great conversation Justin.
I think that if big numbers are your priority then you’ll get a lot of people in your door, but as a leader, without passionately pursuing intimacy with God all those people who become part of your big numbers will not grow in their faith and will be nothing more than just a number.
I believe as John Piper so eloquently put in his book Let the Nations be Glad that “Missions is not the ultimate goal of the church. Worship is. Missions exists because worship doesn’t. Worship is ultimate, not missions, because God is ultimate, not man.” When we talk about “missions” as church folk we traditionally think about going to South America. However, if you think about it, “missions” exists right here… when we talk about numbers we are talking about bringing more and more people in to hear the good news. This is the “missions” side. On the other side, we need to bring them to worship God deeper and more passionately and constantly encourage them to pursue intimacy. A leader can’t lead where he’s not going.
In the end, seeking large numbers as your goal completely flops without passionately pursuing intimacy with God. The church leaders and pastors should definitely focus their number one priority on passionately pursuing intimacy with God and secondly work towards sharing that fire with others and bringing them along on the journey with them. To me, numbers don’t mean that much, if you are sharing that passion and intimacy with 5 people or 5,000 you’re still fulfilling your calling.
As I have seen in my own church here at home, when the leaders passionately pursue intimacy with God, the numbers pretty much take care of themselves. We started with 30 families (less than 100 people) and in 7 years have grown from meeting in a school auditorium to recently completing our own building and maxing out at 2,000 people per Sunday. We didn’t focus on numbers, just on reaching the un-churched, and with a pastor who passionately pursues intimacy with God everything else fell into place.
It all boils down to priorities, but if big numbers is one of your top priorities then it is all in vain without first passionately pursuing intimacy with God.
I attended the National New Church Conference in Orlando a couple weeks ago. It was the largest gathering of church planters and church planting organizations in U.S. history. One of the main themes of the conference was the Western Church's failure to multiply; the conference was even named Exponential. We tend to add to our numbers and call it multiplication. True exponential growth is one believer brings ten people to Christ, that each bring ten more people, that each bring ten more people, etc. It's a paradigm shift in evangelism. Interestingly, the president of the conference, Dave Ferguson of Community Christian Church in Chicago, cited one megachurch "that everyone knows" who did an honest self-evaluation. They polled their attending body to see what percentage came to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ (not including rededications, immersions vs. sprinklings, etc.) through their ministry. They projected about 10%; it came back less than 2%. He contrasted that with the church in the East, which is literally exploding. The South Korean church has strategies in place to win America. The Chinese church has strategies in place to win the Muslim world! One of the speakers was a church leader in Vietnam whose underground church numbers 28,000+. Someone asked him what evangelism strategies he had in place. He responded, "Lives are being transformed and people want to know why." It's that simple. If the heart condition is right, people will be drawn to it. Numbers will follow. The problem with some megachurch models is that they put the chicken before the egg and end up with a sterile peep.
I think that if you unashamedly speak truth, people flock to that. Look at the churches that are big in Charlotte... look at the churches that are growing rapidly in Charlotte... then look past that and throughout the United States. The common theme I think, is that they are all speaking truth and not appologizing for "stepping on toes." I realize that there are some flaws in this theory...
Nonetheless, I think the bold and passionate pursuit of God makes people question what the whole God thing is all about. When the church leadership pursues God and allows God to work through their congregation, numbers have no choice but to grow exponentially.
It's all about God... Praise Him and He will guide and control everything about your church or your ministry.
Justin, great question. I just had a couple of thoughts to throw into the ring--most of which have been mentioned in various chunks by others. (And as a side note, this is the second time I have written a response to this, since the first time around my computer decided I was done with Safari about 3 sentences from the end of my thoughts. So I apologize for the inevitable drop in coherence and logical structure the second go-around.)
I think that when we deal with these three items that you've laid out--the passion for intimacy, the desire for growth, and the necessary action--then there are two ways in which these things are connected. First of all, there is obviously a sequential connection (as others have far more eloquently mentioned.) However, there is also an intrinsic connection tied up with the idea of "intimacy." It is this latter connection which we are likely to overlook.
When we are dealing with intimacy, the situation naturally goes beyond simply acquiring greater knowledge about a person. Intimacy deals not only with knowledge, but with understanding what it is that captures a person's passions--what it is that drives their soul. Regardless of whether it is a friend, spouse, teammate, or co-worker--as you grow in greater intimacy with an individual, you cannot help but be affected, influenced, and eventually driven by the things that captivate their heart. For example, you cannot grow in intimacy with a Boston Red Sox fan without being influenced by that passion--chances are (all other things being equal) that you will at some point become a Red Sox fan because of that person, and if the relationship is long enough or significant enough, you may become one independently of that person. In other words--greater intimacy pushes you to connection with, identification with, and participation in the things that drive them--their passions will eventually become your passions.
It is the same with our relationship with God--the more intimate we become with Him, the more His passions will become ours. It is here that the inherent connection between these things becomes plain--God cares passionately about numbers. God deeply desires for all people to come to know Him. (If you think about it, God probably cares more about numbers than even the most prideful of us ever has.) And as we see throughout the scriptures, God's passion expressed itself through every bit of his action in Christ.
It is from this framework that we must desire and act--if our desire for numbers and accompanying action are driven by a passion that springs from the heart of God, then it will be free of pride and malice.
However, we must also recognize that we never quite reach this goal--our actions are often far from ideal, our desires never pure, and our passions rarely singleminded. Yet this does not absolve us of our responsibility nor does it dissuade us from our calling. It does, however, necessitate that we cultivate some pretty brutal honesty with ourselves as regards the numbers issue.
Perhaps the simplest way with this is best--one question to ask ourselves. When we think of numbers, do we think of people or do we think of Steve, Lauren, Kevin, and Stacy? God is indeed intensely passionate about numbers, but that passion manifests itself in an intensely personal way--not just God loves everyone, but God loves you.
So in the end, I think we must deeply desire to see the church grow numerically (because that is the passion of God's heart), but that passion must be manifested in God's way.
Thoughts welcome...
This blog is a great idea. I just had a chance to sit down and read the questions posted so far and some of the comments to it.
I think it's absolutely possible for a pastor to pursue intimacy with God and at the same time desire to see the church grow in numbers...etc. I think our desire for numerical growth is part of our nature. The motive behind this desire is what's in question. In other words, WHY do we want to see the church grow numerically? Is it for our own selfish benefit? Our own satisfaction of knowing that we've added people to our congregation? Or do we really desire to see that many souls being saved? I think that any pastor who is passionately pursuing Christ has a desire to see relational and spiritual growth in many lives--not just simply outward growth in numbers. Spiritual growth cannot be measured numerically.
I once heard of a church congregation of about 150 people, in Elizabeth City, NC. It's a pretty small place. Yet somehow, these 150 people manage to feed 750 families a week. Not 750 people. 750 families. Which probably averages to like 750x4, or 3,000 people a week, if you want to get technical. That's a lot of people to impact. Here's my point. I don't really think numbers matter, when it comes to the power and potential of Christians to impact other people. If 150 people can feed 3,000 people a week... If Jesus can feed 5,000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish... we have to ask ourselves how much potential and power we have actually been given to impact other people for his glory. We have the ability to do more than we think, whether there's 3 of us, 100 of us, or we are blessed enough to have a congregation numbered in the thousands, we have the power to impact lives. All we have to do is tap into it. To answer the question, I don't think numerical growth should be the main focus. I think spiritual and relational growth, combined with the desire and will to impact other lives, should be our focus. We should go out there without an agenda to bring in more souls, but solely with an agenda to love others. God will bring in the numbers as he pleases.
I'm sure that has already been said somewhere in the 14 other comments made here, but those are my thoughts.
Again, great blog. I'll definitely keep reading.
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